Big Al
Posts: 221
Registered: 4-6-2004
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posted on 28-2-2008 at 18:54
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Is IMCA getting too expensive?
This topic was created as the postings on the Pro slot
PS 4000-IMCA motor sort of wandered off topic.
The forum tries to bring info to both the general public as well as the "incrowd modelcar racers. Discussions on all topics are welcom but please do
try too keep your posting clear and to the point.
with kind regards
Tamar
T, it's all very nice to have bells and whistles, but jezuz, 35€ per motor, our attmepts to get model car racing to the masses is becoming more and
more a pipe-dream! Then you add another 15 to 20 for refusrbishment!!! The going price for a COMPETITIVE 1/24 model car now is easily 300€
plus...
If I do the conversion to SA Currency, trhe guys here are already laughing at the cost of materials and stock.. Now to say 1 motor (which we normally
pay 7€ for, is 5 times more expensive, it's not even a possibility. Guys buy competitive 1/12 RC cars for less than that.. We're squickly losing
the plot.
Sorry dude, I don't support that kind of commercial interest.. I wish someone there would just TRY a Scaleauto SC0012 (Yellow) can motor, and tell me
it's not as good as these motors.
Oh well, not that it's a big loss to the Industry or competition, but my retirement from this once awesome hobby is now becoming a reality.
Big Al
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tamar
Posts: 804
Registered: 5-1-1989
Location: Gouda
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posted on 29-2-2008 at 06:17
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Is IMCA getting too expensive?
Boet...stop shooting from the hip.....using the bad exchange rate of the rand as dum dum bullets. 
There's a lot of energy spend on trying to lend you guys a helping hand when ever the Rand is causing problems.....But!!!
.....Your rate of retirement is not very productive.
Ask first then shoot...
I'll call you later
T
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Whitemouse
Posts: 90
Registered: 27-4-2007
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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posted on 29-2-2008 at 22:03
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Is IMCA getting too expensive?
Dont want to fuel this discussion, however here in Denmark an decent R/C motor is between €75 and €100! And a winning R/C electro complete car is
more like €650 to €750. On top of this comes the huge cost of every litle bit you need to be competitive.
Slotcars are a fair bit cheaper, even at the top level!
Cheers,
Paal Hanson
Vikings Scaleracing Club, Frederikssund, Denmark
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Big Al
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posted on 1-3-2008 at 06:06
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Is IMCA getting too expensive?
Anyone got a job for me in Europe?? preferrably near a Beach somewhere..
Big Al
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Whitemouse
Posts: 90
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posted on 1-3-2008 at 10:00
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Is IMCA getting too expensive?
Hey Al,
No beach close by, nowhere near as nice weather as in SA, it pisses down most of the year here in DK, but if you can program VoIP PBXs, Routers,
Switches and servers gimme a call....
Cheers,
Paal Hanson
Vikings Scaleracing Club, Frederikssund, Denmark
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Kaitsu
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posted on 1-3-2008 at 10:10
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Is IMCA getting too expensive?
Fuel or not.... But I think the 1/24 model car scene goes to wrong direction. Laminated body 150 EUR, motor 35 EUR...
I compare these figures to 1/32 racing (where is my roots). I can buy and built very fast good looking 1/32 FIA GT car under 100 EUR.
Also my 1/24 DSC vintage cars are max. 150 EUR. Maybe 200 EUR if I use german resin body.
No problem for me to use 500 EUR for car if necessary, but what about youngsters and newcomers of hobby? Are they ready for this? I don't think
so.
At same time you have to use 'group N' chassis because of very strict rule book. When you go to race you notice that some racers read the rule book
and use 'group N' chassis. Some racers don't read the rules and they use 'WRC' chassis. I don't understand the meaning of this kind of strict
rules if we don't really follow them.
Sorry, off topic...
-kai
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JustMe
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posted on 1-3-2008 at 14:23
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Is IMCA getting too expensive?
Heard there's a free spot at Nick de Wachter Parts
No beach, but hey, we've got the red light district 
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Whitemouse
Posts: 90
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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posted on 1-3-2008 at 15:08
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Is IMCA getting too expensive?
I like to think about the EEC and the races organised by the LMS fraternity as more or less the "premiere liga" of model car racing, both when it
comes to the build quality of the cars as well as the technology used for chassis.
On the other hand the IMCA Worlds has for the past few years been a one body (Cheap Tamiya or Fujimi kit) class, and it works.
The motors we use are infinitively better than those supplied in any 1/32 plastic car and the new ProSlot motor was made for endurance racing and the
IMCA worlds as I understand it.
Now some of us whants to buy some. And two motors at the suggested price does not break my budget, I will just travell cheaper to the next two
races
Again, my car will have a total cost in parts, i.e. chassis, body, motor, axels, ball bearings, inserts driver and interior of just shy of €250,00
plus umpteen hours of work on it. My bodies are normally home brew but our EEC car has a Fola laminated body, therefore the cost is a little higher
than usual.
We are also in the process of developing a chassis, the M-Racing C1-GT, for this type of racing, so we are experimenting with a lot of one off parts.
We could have gone the easy route and bought the PlaFit SLP, that seems to be the flavor of the month.
Our total budget for the three EEC races, including everything, slotcars, travels, hotels etc. is somewhere between €2.500 and €3.000 - that
includes all three team members for the WMR #36 Aston. If only 10% of that budget actually go to the car, the travelling, hotels, foods etc. is where
we should try to gain some lower costs
I have managed to get around €1.000 in sponsoring for our #36 car and I am working hard on getting some more for the Zolder race in october, where I
plan to bring my whole family for some GT action btw.
As allways racing at a certain level is expensive.
Cheers,
Paal Hanson
Vikings Scaleracing Club, Frederikssund, Denmark
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tamar
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posted on 1-3-2008 at 16:41
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Kaitsu
Fuel or not.... But I think the 1/24 model car scene goes to wrong direction. Laminated body 150 EUR, motor 35 EUR...
I compare these figures to 1/32 racing (where is my roots). I can buy and built very fast good looking 1/32 FIA GT car under 100 EUR.
Also my 1/24 DSC vintage cars are max. 150 EUR. Maybe 200 EUR if I use german resin body.
No problem for me to use 500 EUR for car if necessary, but what about youngsters and newcomers of hobby? Are they ready for this? I don't think
so.
At same time you have to use 'group N' chassis because of very strict rule book. When you go to race you notice that some racers read the rule book
and use 'group N' chassis. Some racers don't read the rules and they use 'WRC' chassis. I don't understand the meaning of this kind of strict
rules if we don't really follow them.
Sorry, off topic...
-kai |
Hello Kai, well it's no longer of topic as I have split the thread, this discussion needed some carefull attention.
Pål has done most of the work for me, I think he explained the 2 sides of IMCA (Endurace/team races vs Sprint/Individual)For each event perfectly.
I've got but a few things to add.
Costs induced by IMCA...at cost price
Whenever Imca forces the use of (hand out) materials by means of its regulations, it has always tried to supply these materials at the lowest possible
cost. In most cases this means at a price that is considerably lower that retail.
This is possible because of the good contacts IMCA has build over the years with some of the manufacturers, who, and this should be said as well, do
this purely for the love of the hobby and to support international competition.
The Scale Auto wheels and Pro Slot PS 4000 are good examples and by supplying 12 ACD controllers IMCA is taking this principle even one step
further.
Unfortunately some people are starting to take these achievements for granted. Complaints about the costs of these materials on the free market are
unfair and unjust.
Standard ..or Free rules and how to enforce them
You are absolutely right that there's no use in having rules if they are not enforced properly. But this is a due to human factors and not the rules.
Going for a Free chassis rule in the future could, if supported by the majority of the racers, end some of these problems. Personally I think the
time is right for such a rule change but not for all the classes.
I personally would be more than happy to see free chassis rules applied to GT1 and possibly GT2. But would keep standard rules for the individual
sprint races.
anyhow enough stuff to discuss via this thread.
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Whitemouse
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posted on 1-3-2008 at 19:44
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As I stated earlier I see the EEC as the top of the three of MODEL CAR RACING. Therefore, I for one would welcome the free chassis rule.
I believe that the IMCA Worlds with its mix of standard F430 racing for 2008 and endurance EEC style racing caters for both types of racing. This is
1/24 scale anyway.
Today the first round of the EPC, the DKPM was run in Copenhagen. And, if one wishes to run cheap standard chassis, with cheap standard parts and
cheap standard bodies, following a very strict and ultra regulated rule book, go race in the EPC/DPM. It is a great series of races, but it does not
appeal to me, simply because the rules are too tight for my likeing.
However Mark Sander (My partner in crime in the EEC!) built and entered a car under the White Mouse Racing moniker. The cost of that car was around
€120 plus the build time, thats about half of our EEC car. The DPM chassis kit including all parts to build an RtR chassis in DK is €100 plus a
Revell Porsche 911GT1 Evo at €20. That is dead cheap 1/24 racing. However, if he wants to go to all EPC rounds in 2008 the budget will get to be
pretty much the same as the one for doing the EEC.
So there you are...................
PS: I have to talk a few stern words with Mark (And Henrik and Peter....) as WMR can´t keep on comin last or second from last in the races we
enter We need to get up to
Cheers,
Paal Hanson
Vikings Scaleracing Club, Frederikssund, Denmark
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JustMe
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posted on 2-3-2008 at 00:44
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1/24 GT body
I just want to add to this thread that, although 150 Euros is a lot of money for a body, you do get all the things you need for making a modern and
actual FIA GT car. For most of the models I sell there are little or no alternative, so the time one saves by not having to endlessly modify a body,
is mostly worth buying one of (my) kits, where I've done the modifiying for you
As mentioned earlier, this has been said to be the best class there is in trying to copy a real 1/1 event, and unfortunately this comes with a
price-tag. Of course somebody could say 150 Euro is a lot of money, but think of it this way;
One pays for about 300 working hours till a FIA GT kit is finished, including all small parts like mirrors, diffusers, wheelinserts, master making for
the lexan parts etc etc etc etc. Add to this the production costs and maybe then you get an idea how much money and effort go into my kits 
The carbon laminated bodies are proven to be very strong, and in Oslo none of my bodies broke (where I want to clearify that Gert Klinge's and Henry
van Gools Maserati bodies, the only carbon bodies that broke, where NOT mine)
When you do have my kit, you don't need to be getting inserts at the one manufacturer, windows at the next and interior at the third, it's all in
the kit.
As soon as possible I also want to be able to include decals in my kits, working very hard on that part.
Racing simpler-cheapers cars is also great fun, but for the thing we are trying to reproduce: the realism, the detail, the level of skills and the
speed of these cars of the FIA GT there is no easier way in doing it, and if there was, nobody would respect eachother for what everyone does as much
as we do now.
On the chassis front: a free rule could be much fun, but I think gaps between teams will widen even more, because the more skilled builders are
allready at the front, only bounded by the rules in the regulations. Also, as Pal mentioned, creating your own chassis will cost at least the same as
buying a standard one. I'm cool either way, but I think it's not (yet) the thing we need in the modelcar racing. Let's first offer all teams the
chance to get more and more competitive, to the level where there are more then, let's say 4 the same favorites every race. Only when everybody is
coming closer, I would advise a free chassis rule.
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Whitemouse
Posts: 90
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posted on 2-3-2008 at 09:13
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I think that by and large Nick is quite right.
However the top 4 will remain the top 4 (or 5-6) as long as there is not a free chassis rules in my opinion.
I will try to elaborate on that.
Right now the S24 or SLP from PlaFit seems to be the tool to have!?! However, you will not win, or get into the top XX unless you use some very
special parts for adding weight and for mounting the body. Nothing wrong in this you understand. It is quite within the rules. As are the 3 degree
cambered fronts. But again it will only work for the S24 and the SLP chassis.
We have worked closely with M-Racing in developing the C1 chassis and Agon chassis along these lines. We have a 3 degree cmabered fronts kit on the
way. We even have a new body mount kit on the way and a weight kit. We could however have had all of these parts for Oslo if there where a free
chassis rule, as we could have used parts from other manufacturers.
To be honest, whether it would have helped us to a better result or not is quite another matter. But we could have gained some very important
experience.
A free chassis rule would let everyone experiment. That might spring some interesting developments, and that again might make for closer racing.
However in my opinion the top 6 or so will probably remain the same no matter what the rules are, untill someone finds a real unfair advantage and
springs to the front.
Free chassis, yes please................
Cheers,
Paal Hanson
Vikings Scaleracing Club, Frederikssund, Denmark
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Kaitsu
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posted on 2-3-2008 at 13:58
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Hi guys,
as I told you the price of my own racing cars is not problem. I can use 500 EUR or over if necessary for my cars.
But I also try to start (with Pekka Nurkkanen & Co) this kind of modern GT class in Finland. I thought it should be good idea if we can run with IMCA
rules in national level also. Maybe this is not good idea. I am sure the racers who cames from 1/32 racing don't like use hundered of euros for one
slot car. I understand them.
I got my idea from ISRA-style Scale Racing. In Finland this kind of racing is quite popular. They use ISRA rules in Finland. So, it is very easy for
finnish racers go to ISRA worlds (and other international events) because of they cars are already.
CONTINUITY of the hobby is what I am looking.
Free chassis is not my main focus. The main focus is THE CLEAR RULES.
One example
Rule book says (Art. 2.1):
"Chassis parts must be from the same manufacturer."
Despite this there was chassies in Oslo with non-manufacturer parts.
I understand this because sometimes it is easier, cheaper and more reasonable to use hand made parts or non-manufacurer tuning parts.
Before Oslo I asked about body holders in this forum:
http://www.slotracinglemans.com/newforum/viewthread.php?tid=1100
My first plan was to use very simple and strong carbon fibre body holders. But after Tamar's answer I understood this is not possible. I have to use
MoMo's original body holders and modify them. So, I used many hours to modifying and making quite complicate carbon/aluminium hybrid bodyholders
according rule book. Maybe I was stupid because I noticed in Oslo many teams used carbon parts in their chassies. But this is finnish way: to built
car according rule book.
-kai
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tamar
Posts: 804
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posted on 3-3-2008 at 17:07
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Kaitsu
Hi guys,
as I told you the price of my own racing cars is not problem. I can use 500 EUR or over if necessary for my cars.
But I also try to start (with Pekka Nurkkanen & Co) this kind of modern GT class in Finland. I thought it should be good idea if we can run with IMCA
rules in national level also. Maybe this is not good idea. I am sure the racers who cames from 1/32 racing don't like use hundered of euros for one
slot car. I understand them.
I got my idea from ISRA-style Scale Racing. In Finland this kind of racing is quite popular. They use ISRA rules in Finland. So, it is very easy for
finnish racers go to ISRA worlds (and other international events) because of they cars are already.
CONTINUITY of the hobby is what I am looking.
-kai |
Hello Kai
I'll be first to admid that the EEC is not the ideal place to start 1/24 Modelcar (slot)racing, for the simple reason that it was never intended as
such. What is now the EEC started as small scale initiative of people who have been in the hobby for years and wanted top level races. And yes running
contemporary cars makes it more costly and complicated. But that was the challenge to begin with.
Further more the EEC is a team championship, if you devide the workload and the costs over the team mates its still a relatively cheap hobby if you
compare it to others with the same high competetive amateur level.
As Pål pointed out; at this level travelling costs will account for the biggest part of the budget.
Which is why the work of IMCA and JPVR should be given more credit as they (or he are the only ones who do try to do something about this.
Instead of complaining why we need to run expensive bodies or difficult liveries, we should wonder why IMCA/JPVR should always pick up the tab for
organising something like the Worlds. If by creating something like the EEC we help IMCA to get some more sponsor money so it can continue its work,
we should not complain.
FIA GT 1/24: International racing with local spinn off
Even if the 1/24 FIAchampionship itself might not be the best tool to attract new people directly into the hobby, there are benefits of having
something like the EEC.
The fact that we're running current cars has created a lot of attention in the media both in and outside of the hobby. It helps that the general
public can once again make the link between autosport and slotracing. Instead of complaining that the EEC is going too far we should advertise it for
what it is...the top level of the game (and please do keep in mind.... that's all it is...a game).
Mark Campbell's 2007 Corvette Challenge is a perfect
example of how slotracing can use the current momentum of GT Endurance racing to kick start local series that are accesible and affordable for new
people in the hobby.
Kai...If you want to kick start something like FIA GT racing in Finland why not start with just the cheap Plastic bodies, make rules with only Carrera
GT1's or just the Revell F430 GT2 (20€).
You can use the decals we made for the EEC so there's plenty of liveries to choose from, there's even more choise if you go beyond the 2007 cars. It
will introduce your racers into the ways of the modelcar scene at low cost and will make it easier to step up to the level of the international IMCA
events.
That's what I would call continuity!
P.s.
I'll adress your chassis/ rules remarks in this thread
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jeem
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posted on 3-3-2008 at 18:08
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Kai, Tamar, others
concerning chassis and parts allowed in IMCA Worlds.
I prefere free chassis. This is fair but not cheap.
Another principle can be seen on german plafit web page:
http://www.plafit-racing.com/en/index.php?uid=C94ee3747bc32aafa80095dc6cd8c0863
where is for the 2008/2009 racing season prescribed only old plafit excel chassis with certain number of displayed homologated parts.
Both these principles prevent situation when you are not able to order and build competitive cars.
I can see future in few classes for hard model bodies based on various chassis and powertrain (design, price).
These days I am trying to order Plafit SLP 24 from germany but I cannot find dealer with this chassis on stock. Without SLP 24 its a waste time to
visit any IMCA race. I hope there will be no new homologated chassis by IMCA a month before the 2008 IMCA Worlds.
Regards
jozef
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tamar
Posts: 804
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posted on 3-3-2008 at 20:33
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Hello Josef...
...welcome to the LMC, nice to see you here!
I could name several racers who disagree about the Plafit SLP being the only competitive chassis, and they have the results to prove it
But yeah you are right that it is by now the preferred chassis for most of the "top" guys.
Maybe one of the suppliers that are also member of the LMC can help you find one.
Concerning your remarks on classes. One of the main problems in "hard body" slotracing is the lack of an "general accepted organisation" that can
issue objective specifications for chassis and motors.
Ok by now everybody more or less agrees on what is a modelcar chassis and what not, and there are several manufacturers who's products have
comparable performances.
However in Modelcar racing each regulating body chooses its own "brand" of motor and most of these have very different performances.
Unfortunately there is no generic description of motor classes like gr10, 20, 27 etc. etc. I wish we had.
What we would need is a list of specs to which a motor manufacturer would have to abide if he wants us to allow it.
But as I'm no motor man I would not have a clue to what these specs would have to be!
I have asked Dan Debella to write a set of specs to which other manufacturers would be able to build motor's like the PS4000-IMCA, but even he said
that the chances that an other manufacturer will do so are very small!
But still ...it would be good to have a set of specifications for both chassis and motors !
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Massiven
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posted on 4-3-2008 at 12:18
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Hi Jozef,
here a link to a shop who has SLP Chassis in stock. Yeahaa... it's the shop of the club where I race every day, and yes.... it's the shop where the
Plafit S24 SLP has been developped!! It ain't the Japanese!!
SLP-Shop.com
For me in germany there are only 2 addresses where to buy my SLP stuff, either SLP-Shop.com or at HT Motorracing (importer).
Hope I could help u a little bit.
cheers,
Mike
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marco
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posted on 8-3-2008 at 17:24
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Hello Friends,
Interesting to see that even in Europe there are some issues with the availability of the SLP chassis and all the bits and pieces for tuning . . . but
here in North America you might as well be looking for a white rhino in a snow storm. There is absolutely 'zip' of anything over here. I hope to
have the situation remedied this year with GR1D, an 'online shop' that will offer exclusive distribution of all the major brands of
1/24 model car chassis and parts for racer's in NA. As a division of Scale Racing America, it will essentially be a co-operative
operation and the proceeds of sales will be used to financially support 1/24 Model Car Racing events and compeititon in the USA and CDN.
Coming back to the thread, it is important that issues of availability are considered when putting the specs together . . . particularly a spec that
we want to have international support. And availability needs to extend beyond the pros and the guys on the 'inside'. There is a strong concensus
across all groups and forums that model car racing must continue to attract new people. So the availability issue must be real . . . widely and
easily available to everyone. Inclusivity . . . not exclusivity . . . will grow our numbers . . . improve the competition . . . and build our future.
Looking forward to seeing some of you again at the DPM in May . . . and the rest of you at the WORLDS in late July. All the best from the Great
White North.
Mark Campbell
Scale Racing America
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