Raymond posted this reply on the FIA GT Bodymounts topic but as it adresses a far wider and more general topic...I thought it best to open a new thread for this discussion.

tamar



Hey guys,

If you continue this way, you might one day end up with a fantastic rule set in which everything is regulated, but by that time you will have no competitors left to obey them, and the few teams left will have to engage a full-time lawyer to flee the rules out...

If you want to make this championship work, keep it simple. It might not have been perfect all the time, but I've been there and done so, and believe me, I know from experience that the more you complicate things, the more the "grey"-zone will be exploited by the top guns in the category.

The very first question to ask yourself in every issue is simple : is this going to be an unfair advantage for someone? if the answer is yes, the action to undertake is obvious... make it illegal !
If the answer to this question is no, WTF is the problem exactly?

It just makes no sense to run a European Endurance Championship where the chances of succes for the competitors solely depend on the chassis option list and the homologated parts for this chassis. Let's then just declare a team victorious, preferably the one of which the manufacturer pays the most to get the title, and split that money among the teams, this will save us a considerable amount of money.

I might be wrong, but it also makes no sense to me to impose the use of "standard" chassis and at the same moment allow the use of the very latest high tech bodies. Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with the use of these kind of bodies, on the contrary, I love them, and I think they are the way to go for a European championship worth its name... and they are a prime necessity to comply with the actual sponsor obligations as for the variety and consistency of the field.

But let's face the reality : some of these bodies simply can not be mounted in a competitive way with the standard body mounts on some of the homologated chassis! So there are three options :
1) make it a monotype chassis championship and publish the list of parts that are homologated on this chassis, making sure that each and every body can be mounted correctly.
2) you only allow certain bodies which can be mounted with the original parts on all chassis, and you specify the way they must be mounted
3) you allow at least the necessary modifications on the different chassis and their options to mount these bodies in a decent and effective way, to create a level playing ground for all competitors.

Option 1 is not a good idea from a commercial point of view, we may need the other manufacturers one day... and it is clearly not fair towards these other manufacturers. There are races for mono-type chassis, and the EEC should not be one of them, or you should change it's name.
Option 2 is in direct conflict with the actual sponsor's conditions, so that just leaves us with option 3...

If I would make a comparison to the real autosport world, our actual rules do allow the use of super sophisticated lightweight carbon or kevlar copies of the original GT body shells, but at the same time only allows to use these on the rolling chassis of a Group N kind of car. I think you will agree that this just makes no sense... If you read through the 1/1 FIA GT rules, these are not really reflected in our 1/24 scale rule set... Just one amongst the many regulations worth to mention because of the direct comparison : Suspension to use the original mounting positions as on the road version that was submitted for homologation. In other words, the wishbones, triangles, torsion bars, shocks, springs and whatever other suspension parts can be modified or replaced by others, as long as they are on the original position. Even Group A rules are more liberal when compared to our 1/24 counterpart!

Why is it so difficult to just copy the chassis rules for the Ferrari Challenge, where all of the issues above are dealth with in a decent way? We all want it to resemble to real autosport, don't we?

CU @ the races!

Raymond

I fully agree with Raymond, for several reasons.

Right now our team is in the process of developing some very major parts for the M-Racing chassis, by the middel of this year I am sure this will mean that we will have a M-Racing WMR 1 chassis. But up until that point there are only tune up parts, if you want to make the chassis that we use. I guess that the same is very much the same for most of the other chassis used, including he PlaFit SLP.

As Raymond state we run "state of the art" bodies that we either produce at considerable cost, or buy at prices well above the run of the mill Tamiya or Revell plastic kit price.

And if you dont want to join a "no holds barred" championship, well go for the one make PlaFit championships, where there is almost a one body and one chassis rule.

I´d like to see the EEC as the cutting edge of 1/24 model car racing, the place where new stuff is developed, that will eventually end up on commercial standard chassis.

To do that, I believe that Raymonds suggestion that as long as the wheels are where they should be, and the motor drives the rear wheels via the 9/44 gearing, well then thats just perfect.

Please correct me if I misunderstood something Raymond!

But, like Raymond I belive that most of us will use a standard product, and develop stuff that makes it faster.

OK, I rest my case for now.

Hello Guys

It's really nice to have these "theoretical" discussions with you guys..makes me think back to those hectic web battles I had with JP

It keeps you sharp and its always good to think about what we're doing and where we couls/should go.
Both Raymond and Pål raised some good points...and off course I beg to differ


My argumentation
Let me repeat it once more...the 1/24 FIA GT EEC is a Model(slot)car Championship. The main purpose of the rulebook is to recreate the FIA GT in scale 1/24 on a slotted track. So its only logical that in the tech rules the main focus is on the modelling part.

Building a 1/24 FIA GT model requires a lot of skill and will take most of the time. To make these bodies the regulations are quite liberal.
As there's only a finitive amount of time avialable for each of us to build a complete car, the chassis rules are more restrictive.
(the opposite example is the German SLP series where the main focus is on the chassis, here the chassis rules are free, but the modelling rules are much more restrictive.)
But there's still plenty of room for "creativity". You can use all the parts produced by a given chassis manufacturer, providing you with plenty of options to play with. The main thing for the chassis is that they must be "commercailly available" so all participants have acces to the same "meccano" box.


Some of the other points raised by Pål & Raymond
Raymond:
If you want to make this championship work, keep it simple. It might not have been perfect all the time, but I've been there and done so, and believe me, I know from experience that the more you complicate things, the more the "grey"-zone will be exploited by the top guns in the category.

Could not agree more, which is why I'm currently working on a simple and clear definition on how you should mount a body on the chassis (at the same time defining what is counted as a body and what belongs to the chassis)

Raymond:
The very first question to ask yourself in every issue is simple : is this going to be an unfair advantage for someone? if the answer is yes, the action to undertake is obvious... make it illegal !
If the answer to this question is no, WTF is the problem exactly?

Again...could not agree more, These are the gorund principles by which I always try to write and apply the rules!


Raymond:
But let's face the reality : some of these bodies simply can not be mounted in a competitive way with the standard body mounts on some of the homologated chassis!
I have not build all bodies, with all chassis, but I can assure you that there is definately one standard chassis that will fit all bodies.
And the rules dont state that you have to use the chassis in its standard "form" There were past experiance deemed it neccesary the rules allow you certain modifications.

Which brings me to the next point, where Raymond compares the 1/1 FIA GT rules to the 1/24 rules
Raymond:
..."Just one amongst the many regulations worth to mention because of the direct comparison : Suspension to use the original mounting positions as on the road version that was submitted for homologation. In other words, the wishbones, triangles, torsion bars, shocks, springs and whatever other suspension parts can be modified or replaced by others, as long as they are on the original position. ..'

Well...actually Raymond...a lot of the wording and definitions I use for the 1/24 regulations are in fact based directly on those of the FIA. To prove my point...that body rule I mentioned before....I was looking at exactly the same article in the FIA rules for inspiration.

4.2 Construction - A body must be mounted on the chassis using the original holes provided on the Chassis. In top view a body must cover all parts of the chassis and the tread of the tyres. Allowed Body materials are hard plastics, resin, Carbon/GFK laminations. Lexan is allowed only for interior, detail and clear parts.

Ok that's it for now, there's only a finitive amount of time avialable for each of us to build a complete car, draw decals .......and write slotrace rules

I'll adress Pål's points later.

Tamar, please see my comments in this green in between your lines...

Quote:

Originally posted by tamar ....Let me repeat it once more...the 1/24 FIA GT EEC is a Model(slot)car Championship. The main purpose of the rulebook is to recreate the FIA GT in scale 1/24 on a slotted track. So its only logical that in the tech rules the main focus is on the modelling part. Building a 1/24 FIA GT model requires a lot of skill and will take most of the time. To make these bodies the regulations are quite liberal. As there's only a finitive amount of time avialable for each of us to build a complete car, the chassis rules are more restrictive. This has never been said in so many words, and it was certainly not "sold " this way by "the powers that be" when the proposal was made. I'm not sure at all that the number of entries would have been the same when this would have been stated in the words you actually use. Initially, the chassis rules were pretty identical to the ones for the Ferrari Challenge, which is exactly why a lot of competitors subscribed ...But there's still plenty of room for "creativity". You can use all the parts produced by a given chassis manufacturer, providing you with plenty of options to play with. The main thing for the chassis is that they must be "commercailly available" so all participants have acces to the same "meccano" box. Well, that is if they would use the same chassis... but they don't... what would be so wrong with mixing parts from different manufacturers, or build the parts you need yourself, as long as they fit the chassis? ... Could not agree more, which is why I'm currently working on a simple and clear definition on how you should mount a body on the chassis (at the same time defining what is counted as a body and what belongs to the chassis) It is quite easy : the body is the complete assembly that can be taken apart from the chassis. And this body assembly should be attached to the chassis at the original position. If the body attachments are to be counted in the weight of the body, it seems only logic they are part of the body... ... Raymond: The very first question to ask yourself in every issue is simple : is this going to be an unfair advantage for someone? if the answer is yes, the action to undertake is obvious... make it illegal ! If the answer to this question is no, WTF is the problem exactly? Again...could not agree more, These are the gorund principles by which I always try to write and apply the rules! well, there is clearly an unfair advantage for a certain manufacturer, see below... Raymond: But let's face the reality : some of these bodies simply can not be mounted in a competitive way with the standard body mounts on some of the homologated chassis! I have not build all bodies, with all chassis, but I can assure you that there is definately one standard chassis that will fit all bodies. that IS clearly an unfair advantage for a certain manufacturer. We both know that not everybody had the opportunity to freely choose their body from the list. ... And the rules dont state that you have to use the chassis in its standard "form" There were past experiance deemed it neccesary the rules allow you certain modifications. Well... an example might clarify this : it is physically impossible to fit the splendid Maserati body on a Striker 55 mm chassis without slightly modifying the chassis. Speaking of a disadvantage... ... Which brings me to the next point, where Raymond compares the 1/1 FIA GT rules to the 1/24 rules Raymond: ..."Just one amongst the many regulations worth to mention because of the direct comparison : Suspension to use the original mounting positions as on the road version that was submitted for homologation. In other words, the wishbones, triangles, torsion bars, shocks, springs and whatever other suspension parts can be modified or replaced by others, as long as they are on the original position. ..' Well...actually Raymond...a lot of the wording and definitions I use for the 1/24 regulations are in fact based directly on those of the FIA. To prove my point...that body rule I mentioned before....I was looking at exactly the same article in the FIA rules for inspiration. 4.2 Construction - A body must be mounted on the chassis using the original holes provided on the Chassis. In top view a body must cover all parts of the chassis and the tread of the tyres. Allowed Body materials are hard plastics, resin, Carbon/GFK laminations. Lexan is allowed only for interior, detail and clear parts. translating my example to our 1/24 cars would mean that all of the parts for this body suspension could be modified and or replaced by other parts, as long as the body is attached on the original place on the chassis Ok that's it for now, there's only a finitive amount of time avialable for each of us to build a complete car, draw decals and write slotrace rules

then the blob is allowed
Aren't we missing the point here?

but also don't post on this thread unless you've read it whole


Well Raymond here we go again
Initially, the chassis rules were pretty identical to the ones for the Ferrari Challenge, which is exactly why a lot of competitors subscribed

And the chassis rules still are and they have not changed since JP noted that the Tech rules on this site would be leading. Actually the Ferrari Challenge rules were posted way after we wrote the FIA GT rules. And when JP did he allowed the mixture of chassis parts and all the modifications. His his choice not mine!

And I sincerely doubt your statement about the motivation of why a lot of competitors suscribed.

Now if I may summerise some of your other comments:

• Not everybody had the opportunity to freely choose their body from the list.
  Totally true, as the subscription was on a first come first serve basis, its only natural that the number of choices diminishes as the number of subscribers rise. But as I said before nobody forced anybody to subscribe.
  
  
• Not everybody is using the same chassis so not everybody can use the same parts.
  Untrue, the choice of chassis manufacturer is free so all have the same acces to all the chassis and parts.
  
  
• Why not allow the mix of parts from different manufacturers, or build the parts you need yourself, as long as they fit the chassis?
  And to which chassis must these parts fit? If I use a Plafit guideholder and build all the other parts myself is it still a Plafit Chassis?
  Allowing this would mean a change to a free chassis rule and that's not what I think is best.
  Allowing only commercailly available chassis reduces the difference between the novice and top gun as all have acces to the same materials.
  It is the task of the Chassis manufacturers produce new parts or chassis if there is a demand for them or if they think they can create such a demand. Both the Plafit SLP and the MoMo SW4 are clear examples of such demands.
  And if I read Pål's post correctly M-racing is about to follow.
  
  
• It is physically impossible to fit the Schöler striker 55 chassis under the splendid Masserati body unless you slightly modify the chassis.
  So? choose a different chassis, one that will fit. Or ask your preferred manufacturer to make a chassis that does fit. I'm sure that other Schöler/Masserati fans would love to buy one.
  
  
• As the rules do not allow these chassis modifications nor the mixing of parts between different manufacturers this gives an unfair advantage to a certain chassis manufacturer.
  I think everybody will agree that it is an disadvantage when a chassis does not fit under the body. But to state that it is an unfair advantage when it does?!!!
  
  

This whole topic started from a simple question on how to mount a body and took off as I noted that we might need a better rule and or definition on this subject. Which is why I'm most happy with Raymond's contribution in creating such a definition...and as always, once its there it is simple.

Here are the points:

• the body is the complete assembly that can be taken apart from the chassis.
  Good start although it is more a definition of what is measured as body weight:
  Body Weight: Weight of the complete assembly that can be taken apart from the chassis.
  
  But we also need to describe where and how it can be taken apart from the chassis. Or in other words where does the chassis end and begins the body. For this Raymond offered two clues
  
  
• And this body assembly should be attached to the chassis at the original position.
  
• Body suspension/mounting parts should be free to modify and or replaced by other parts, as long as the body is attached on the original place on the chassis
  The intention is clear: do it any way you want as long as you as you can (dis)mount it on/from the chassis in the original way. but the words position/place are conflicting with other sections of the rulebook.
  See Art 2 Chassis
  2.2. Construction - Assembly of the Chassis must be done via bolts and/or glue using the original holes provided in the Chassis Parts. Positioning of the parts is free.
  
  Which is why I re used the term "original holes''
  A body must be mounted on the chassis using the original holes provided on the Chassis.
  
  Although the more I think of it "holes" is not entirely correct as well, maybe the term "mounting points" is better, more generic. This would give us a rule like:
  Construction: The Body must be attached to the chassis at the original mounting points.
  
  

In Finland we (Pekka Nurkkanen, Salomaa family and me) just decided to start racing with these FIA GT rules (together with F430 challenge). I think we have 5-10 cars on grid on March.

I can't see major problems with these rules. Rules are rules. I am a racer. Not a modeller. I love to race all kind of slot cars (Scalextric, Model Cars, Scale cars, even Wing cars). Only things what I need are some explanations. That's why I asked about body holders, interiors etc. I want built my cars exactly according to rulebook.

I am very happy if somebody (IMCA, Tamar + co) can create these kind serie.

regards
kai

Hi Tamar,Nick,Pal,Kai,
I'm trying to follow just what is going on here, with some difficulty.
I think I saw that this thread started with Tamar telling how to mount bodies...WHICH I NEED TO KNOW VERY MUCH...
Earlier I saw an article showing adding plastic material to a F430 body to make it reach the legal height...
IT SURE WOULD BE NICE FOR US NON MODELERS IF THE BODIES WERE THE CORRECT HEIGHT OUT OF THE BOX...I'M SURE IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR ALL CONCERNED IF YOU WANT TO BRING IN MANY NEW PEOPLE TO THE SPORT IF THE "RULES FIT THE BODIES THAT ARE AVAILABLE" NOT "MAKE THE BODIES FIT THE RULES"...
SOMEHOW THIS SEEMS BACKWARDS TO ME...LIKE PUTTING THE CART IN FRONT OF THE HORSE...
Not being a modeler I have no idea on what to do, how to do it, nor do I have the time to learn a whole new technology with all the things that I already have to do with what I race in my part of the world...To say nothing of keeping the rental cars, birthday cars running, ordering and stocking the parts and building RTR's for the shop to sell...
As well as a long list on "HONEY DO'S" in the real world...
I don't want to get into a heated discussion of this, as I know this is what you guys race on a full time basis...and I certainly respect you for what you do with them and the time it takes to make car...
It just seems to me that the more simple the rules are the better off an organization will be...especially in bringing in new people.
I don't suppose that you should care about us occasional racers dropping in a couple of times a year...
Oh, I forgot, does Plafit make a motor bracket that allows the motor to fit down flush with the bottom of the chassis for the SLP chassis or is another part from a different mfg. still necessary...At least that is what I was told before last years race at JP's deal...
Don't get to pissed at me for my thoughts...as you know I probably won't make any of these races, though I would like to, the realities are that I won't...This was just my thoughts about rules with model bodies...
Thanks for listening..
see ya this summer
crash
AND OH YEAH, I STILL NEED AN ARTICLE ABOUT HOW TO MOUNT A MODEL CAR BODY ONTO A CHASSIS...
PLEASE HELP...

Hi Fred,
for the races in Summer.... The worlds you use the ferrari 430 as it is .... no modifications are allowed or are neccesary. Just check the rules and regs and put theparts together as the instructions say... so thie rule actually fits the body. ;-)
The mods that Nick is doing is to create a scale f430 GT version which is not readily available but needed for the Fia GT races by various Racers.
Plafit doe not make such a bracket but you can use one fron Schöler or from momo. The momo fits very well, and the schöler is adjustable in height... if my memory serves me well...... Mounting a body to the chassis....
I mailed you a couple of weeks ago.... Check your old mail. I iwll try to document the procedure and will take pix of the process....
and regarding your thoughts.... your FREEDOM of thoughts and speech is very respected....Î prefer the not tooooo simple way though.... gotta make it hard to make it fun and interesting. I like the challenge and the technical innovation....

Take care,

Fola

PS. Correct me if i am wrong......

Yes Fred, Fola is totally right in his explanations on the differing 430's. Mine is indeed a GT2 version which can be raced in FIA GT races, but they ARE available as a kit. Just like the Maserati MC-12 and the Murcielago R-GT. The Porsche 997 will follow soon. you have my email adress and for those that don't: Justme_Nick_de_Wachter@hotmail.com or nickdewachterparts@live.nl. Both are fine.

Cheers