With all that is available electronically, surely there are those so clever with devices like controllers that they would be able to gain a clear and distinct advantage with them?

We use supplied controllers here and they work just fine, no chance for hanky panky!

Thoughts?

Terry

are you making accusations?????

then you could also have "Supplied Cars" supplied drivers supplied everything....

Think the idea sucks... bad.

mouahaha...

I'm following several duscussions in the german scale forum. they are talking about the acd controller who gives voltage peaks back to the track when you brake. I also read the word traction controll in one of the threads.

Could it be that somebody also read these articles and only by then the idea came to forbid the "traction controll".

cheers,
De Massiven

I agree with Mike,
ACD "et al" controllers do provide drivers with more control than other electronic controllers, it's a known fact. YES I'M MAKING AN ACCUSATION FOLA!

Worlds events should be run like in Barca, with the same controllers supplied on the track. Everyone has the same tools. Remove any 'adjustments" or make them inaccessable, and then the racing results will look different.

Regards

Big Al

The ACD Pro gives voltage spikes (when braking) towards the PSU only, not towards the track.

As far as I have understood, there's no true traction control available in the controllers, just that some manufacturers like to call some of their features as such. At SlotForum there's been a discussion about "traction control": http://www.slotforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=28944&hl=traction+control.

ACD Pro might have an edge compared to some other controllers, when decelarating (not braking, but when just easing the trigger) as it "forces" (PWM feature) the motor to this "power level" compared to analogue systems where it might take some more time to reach that same motor RPM. The question is where to draw the line of the "unfair advantage": e.g. don't some "serious" non-PWM controllers (e.g. DiFalco) have an edge as well compared to a "basic" resistor controller like Parma Economy which do not have full throttle relay? Or what about controllers with adjustable throttle curve or brake compared to a basic Parma Economy which does not have either?

Where's the border? I believe it has so far been "any controller as long as it does not increase the voltage to the track" ?

/Pekka

Hi,

these questions have already treatened in the german forum too. Just to let you know why the discussion was started:

somebody, who wishes to enter the DPM this year, races the ACD 3 controller since it has been released. So he is used to it, kinda normal I think. The DPM rules say, that any controller raising the voltage (no matter if it goes to the PSU or track, and no matter if the voltage is incread during acceleration or braking) is forbidden. Just to prove the peak, the have an oscillo. to mesure theses peaks. some of the ACDs had the problem last year with these peaks. Note that the peaks are only there for a few milli seconds! The builder himself of the controller says, that these peaks don't give any advantage. I can't prove that because I only have basic eletronic skills. Now all the ACD drivers seem to be pissed in germany, LOL. I know guys which are very very fast, even with standard 25ohm parma controllers without any kind of electronics.

Just wondering how far the discussion goes here now ;-))

cheers for now,
mike

Guys...discussions about hanky panky with controllers are as old as slotracing itself. And after half a decade all those NEW !!!!! ideas, have been done, tried tested and deemed (il)legal at one time or the other in Slotracing history.

I remember when I started slotracing my home set controllers had no "negative" brake, and then a friend came by who had a Parma controller which did. As he could brake half a meter later than all the others....everybody yelled faul play, unfair advantage...for a while..... and then they all bought one.

Pulse Width Modulation has been used in controllers since the early 90's. Ever seen slotracers yank the trigger very fast up and down between full and half throttle when they go through a chicane? A PWM uses more or less the same principle.

But instead of altering the voltage via a resistor PWM controlls the time the voltage is applied to the track...and does this at a much higher frequenty.

The second thing I notice is that most forum dicussion on these type of topics are started by people who are, to put it nicely, not really experts in the field of electronics. (a large group of people to which I also belong). But even so..just a little bit of common sense should give you eneough clues to see what's true and what not.

"The acd controller gives voltage peaks back to the track when you brake."
If I need to brake the last thing I would want is for the controller to give power to my motor...so this makes no sense.
With most current controllers the brake is acuated via a fixed brake contact. You have to move the trigger to the contact position to brake.
A PWM controller can be build in such a way that it sends brake pulses in between the power pulses. When in the 90's a Dutch company Muco developped their PWM controller the first prototypes used this brake, but it was dropped as for the "general slotracer" it felt "unnatural". Apperently the ACD cotroller has a more refined version of this brake, it already starts giving brake pulses in between the power pulses when the wiper is being moved towards the "brake" position.
See it as left foot braking in a real car. Which still takes skill to use it properly.

Traction Controll
An other "automotive" term mis used to describe features on a controller. Unless the ACD gets feedback info from the car to the controller when the wheels are spinning there's no tracktion controll other than your ears, eyes and finally your finger.


Rules to govern what we want or want not
Which is what these discussions will lead to. What is a controller and what is it allowed to do. For many years we have had this article in our
General Technical Rules .

ART.3 ELECTRIC CIRCUITS
3.2 Controller: Any device operated by a driver regulating the electric power to control the speed of a slotcar is counted as a controller. All Controllers are subject to inspection by the T.C. to verify compliance with the rules.
They must:

• Only regulate the supplied power for use on a given track.
  
• Not increase of the Lane voltage in reference to the power supply voltage.
  
• Regulation of the supplied power must be operated manually by the driver, automated operation of the controller is not allowed.
  
  

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Al I agree with Mike, ACD "et al" controllers do provide drivers with more control than other electronic controllers, it's a known fact. YES I'M MAKING AN ACCUSATION FOLA! Worlds events should be run like in Barca, with the same controllers supplied on the track. Everyone has the same tools. Remove any 'adjustments" or make them inaccessable, and then the racing results will look different. Regards Big Al

Definitively, traction control or anti-spin feature are fakes !

From where do you get reliable feedback information which are absolutely indispensable to close the loop in any automated process ?

All controllers that I ever learned are open loop control systems, that means no automated assistance for the driver in the fact, it's only a matter of adjusting parameters to make driving more, let's say, "comfortable" and by the way efficient.

Concerning technical regulation, that should be quite simple, I propose only two points which have to appear in the lines of rules to qualify electronic controllers:

1- Any hardware/software system in the controller or/and in any electronic module which may be present in the car, in order to produce an elevation (xxx % for more than xxx milliseconds) of his output voltage to a higher one than it is supplied by the track system, is forbidden.

2- Any hardware/software system which is able to recover feedback information transmitted from any equipment in the car and to make use of this in order to produce assistance for driving, is forbidden.

Quite simple in the lines in fact, but who could be designated as technical expert and proceed in such a qualification ? That's another problem !

kindest regards to all of you,
Philippe.

From a well informed source...but not yet officially confirmed.....so finally something that perfectly fits the "un official" Imca forum

Rumour has it that IMCA considers having a ... number of ACD controllers available at the worlds for those who want to use them. Use of "personal" controllers will still be allowed as long as they are with in the rules.

Apparently this way IMCA wants to end the "yapping" by those who think that PWM or a ADC controllers are the holy Grail.

Good news for those who do not have one I would say

Hi,

I have tested ACD Pro few times in our track. I have to say I got better laptimes with 15 ohm Parma Economy controller...

Henri, my team mate, used 15 ohm Economy without any adjustements in Oslo. No problem to go 5,8 s laps

-kai

ola,

I used an ACD during the Worlds 2007 too, but only becaus i fu..ed mine up during training. Was my own fault. The ACD is for smooth driving and that's not my style. I'm kinda hardcore . The only thing why I handled the ACD is because my Nismo had that less gripp and that I mostly drifted around the course. Ask John and Fred, they can tell you how my Nismo went through the dount . Seriously now, ACD is nothing for when there's grip on the track. Can't handle that brake either.

Hopefully I can stay on my "Nezih-Drücker" or on my Carsteen.

Cheers,
Mike

Quote:

Originally posted by tamar From a well informed source...but not yet officially confirmed.....so finally something that perfectly fits the "un official" Imca forum

Thats really good news for those who aint got one !
Personally feel that the controller and how one uses it is as important as the car and its build....
and is all a question of personal taste. Whats good for the goose is not necesarily good for the
gander ya'll think that the ACD is a super cheat, I know many that just cannot drive with it and prefer a standard or a nezih...and are just as fast as any body else. All this Yakking about whose got what and
lets take his Toys (Tools) away is B*llsh*t every one has access so dont "hate" - go get one!
Remember guys, some animals are more equal....
Standardization makes life boring . Get Pro creative!!

Halleluja Fola

PS: I hate the ACD, have tried a few, never got the thing working to my liking!

Thought that only the chassis where fixed.

I have active suspension is that going to be banned also

Nice to hear a good joke

I concur with Tamar et al regarding controllers - it is a slotracer's tool - perchance the most important one, and you get a personal relationship to it.

I had major problems with the fixed controllers in Barcelona - first because I didn't know it, second because the buttons were too small to adjust for me, missing part of my thumb.

So in all fairness, escpeially for us handicapped, own controllers, pretty please.

BTW, I have an ACD controller - but have the same problem adjusting it since the 'chocke' button is soooo small....

But, if fixed controllers really is something that is really important to some - let's use a standard Parma Turbo Pro 15 ohm - without adjustments.

I have just designed my own controller. It has adjustable responce time that can smooth the output voltage and reduce wheel spinning. I can turn it off when the grip is good, but it's nice to use it when you have low friction. The controller also has a fixed output voltage like a PWM controller and can brake the motor when reducing speed without fully releasing the throttle. I think this gives more controll of the car going into a curve.
My opinion is that personal controllers is a 'need to have'. As long as the output voltage is within the limits of the input supply voltage and you control it yourself everything should be allowed.
I can think of several ways to build a controller that would increase the top speed and breaking, but that would be cheating. This can not be accepted on either the controller or the car.
Connecting a oscilloscope to the controller output or the track can easily detect this. I do not think short voltage spikes on the input will matter, but it could harm or distort other equipment connected to the same power. This only indicates a bad design on the ACD controllers that should be corrected.