Hi Willem,

this means that the motor holder is free? I can use MoMo Motor holder while the rest is Plafit?

Just asking myself if Jean-Pierre has the same interpretation of the IMCA rules. That would make life much easier. I think Fola already posted already a thread why using the MoMo Motorholder instead of a plafit one. There's still no release date for the new FOX-holder.

Cheers,
Mike

I agree 100% with Fola on the freedom of expression, that said I guess its a question of either regulating the rules a lot for parity, or leaving it very open for no holds barred inovation.

IMCA has to have firmly regulated rules I think, to keep sort of parity, but the LMS should be "state of the art" if posible. We are all doing our "Voodoo" stuff when it comes to bodies anyway..............

Just my 5 cent.........

Fola, Whitemouse, Mike

Whilst taking your remarks into a goodnight sleep, it felt to me as a big DEJA VU. 10 years ago we had exactly the same discussion resulting in a set of rules with definitions lists, functionlists, material lists and part lists in order to make "sure" that "whizzkids" like yourself couldn't find a hole in the rules
This proved to be a useless excersise. There will always be holes in the rules and the usual suspects will always look for them. Here comes the phrase: "WHAT'S THE SPIRIT OF THE RULES?"
Well I think you all understand what they are and if you don't.....there is always the possibility of asking.
Having said this.....here the answers on the questions in the several posts:

I agree with Fola, i think that the evolution of the cars must be in racing, not in stores. Really in our hobby, we enjoy building the car, testing new technical solutions and so on.
And today, the excuse that some materials are not available in some countries is not valid, Internet make possible to get what you want where you want.
And another question. What is the sense in allow only materials fron the same manofacturer of the chassis? Also, i see that in Momo Chassis i can't use the Plafit multipart body holders, but in the Plafit chassis you can use the Momo Motor holder, i don't want to think in a wrong way, but looks like this rules are to give some extra advantage to the Plafit chassis........

Hi Francesc,

hte only reason why I asked to use the MoMo Motorholder in Plafit Chassis is following:

I race in the race center, where the SLP groundplate from Plafit has been developed. Therefore I ONLY race Plafit Chassis or selfmade chassis. Plafit has no motorholder for FOX-like motors (FOX-like because of the can size) that allows to lower the motor in order the the motor is clear with the groundplate (seen from the bottom). I also have no clue how to finetune a MoMo chassis to get it fast . In my eyes SLP groundplates don't have that much advantage because they have been developed for the Bison motor, which is much heavier than the Proslot Euro MK. It's just a question of the center of gravity (hopefully everbody understands what I'm trying to say).


Now I've got to write Jean-Piere an email in order to ask him, if I can use the MoMo holder in my chassis.


Cheers,
Mike

Hi Mike

The problem is not the motor holder, the problem is a lack of coherence in the rules.
Why we can't mix parts from different chassis manofacturers? We need to protect the bussiness of the manofacturers? or we want to enjoy getting the most from our cars?.
As well you need a Fox motor holder, i can need a multipart body holder, why you can use a part of a diferent manofacturer and i can't?
Do you understand what i mean?
Why we can't improve chassis and we can use very sofisticated bodies? Coherence, this is the main question.
Some rules only give conflicts.....

Hi Francesc,

I understand what you're saying.

Mike

Hi Guy's

I would like to remind you all to the fact that all racers make a choice of
chassis they want to use in a race.
My opinion is followd: a. you made that choice yourself.
b. Stick to the parts of the choice you made.

Now the why:

I have been playing with slotcars for a long time now, and seen it go up and down.
The ups where there when we all raced the same materials.
The downs came up when we started to develop new parts and used them

What I'm trying to tell you all is that iff you allowe mixed use of different brands to get the ultimate chassis.
Slotracing will get it's down moment again.
Stick to the rules and race the race in good sportsmanschip.

Greetz Gert

Hello Gert

Regarding this: "What I'm trying to tell you all is that iff you allowe mixed use of different brands to get the ultimate chassis.
Slotracing will get it's down moment again."

My experience in Spain it's absolutely oposite to your afirmation. We race for some years with the formula of only one make chassis, and day after day the people leave the hobby. When i start with the championships of GrupoZ (model cars with Kyosho RC bodies) and model cars with free rules, day after day we have more people. Also you can see the experience in the DSC championship, where the chassis is absolutelly free, you can also race with a home made chassis.
Some people try to link the obscure days of the slot racing with the freedom of chassis and materials, and yes, exists a relationship, but is not only this. I'm one of the racers who in the begining of the 80's leave the slot racing, i was an eurosport racer, i made my own chassis and rewind my own motors, but i leave the slot racing for something so simple like girls, "fiesta" and work.
Another scenary to show you that your afirmation is wrong is the 1/32 slot racing. In this moments in Spain , the 1/32 slot racing is living a golden age, and never before you had so many racing stuf and new products like now. You can choose a mix beetween Slot.it, NSR, Ninco, SCX, Scalextric, Fly, Sloter, Avant Slot, Spirit, Hobby Slot, PN Slot and many many brands, with a lot of news each month, and never before we have so many entrants in the races.

But this is not what i disagree regarding the rules, i disagree the fact that these rules are not coherent, they put limits in the development of the chassis, but not in the bodies. Also permits some "foreign" parts for some chassis but not for others.
And don't be confused with my attitude in this question, this is not a problem for me, because i'm in a very comfortable position in relation with some manofacturers, i have a R&D and if i need some parts, they do it for me and for sale. For example i needed a chassis from Momo to meet the IMCA rules, and Momo did it (X-SW07 GT).
But i hate the non coherent rules, and some absurd limits to the creativity.
For example in the part regarding the chassis, will be easier for everybody ( racers and race direction) rules like:
"Chassis free of choice beetween the commercial ones, mix of parts of different manofacturers are allowed. Home made parts are allowed if the part in question has a similar shape and only does the same role of the substituted part"

If you remember, this is very very similar to the rules of the IMCA worlds 2004 of Uden.......

There will always be something to biatch about.
That is the nature of man.... never satisfied, never has enough...
as I wrote i feel that things should be totally open, but on the other hand,
not all animals are equal.... some are more equal than others, and even though
every thing is available to any and everybody, not everybody is able to or in the
postition to make use of all possible options and in some cases for no personal fault.
On one side we all want progress and develpment. On the other side we also want
the continuatiuon of the sport/hobby but as Gert implied the progress we strive for could be the downfall of the hobby.....and thus some rules need to be layed down... for our own good
other wise we might just end up with two classes that are each too small to survive....

Home brew is, when done right , not more expensive than Commercially available,and with the right amount of sourcing the pit/sky is the limit. Maybe the cracks (US?) need to follow Tamars footsteps and open the door for the other unequal animals who need assistance to see and grab the available opportunities..... and progress

Ok thats enough philosophy for this decade!!!!

Gotta get back to building Model cars....

One more thing.... Francesc has a very good point.
The most popular series at the moment here in Germany
isi the SLP, all of you know that this series totally encourages
home brewed chassis and stock bodies. The choice of Cars ( or Quoting Tamar, DECKELN), may not be our flavour, but you have to agree that the
pace of development is huge (Formular1) and that the complaxity of the subject matter does not scare but attracts active and potential participants alike.
There is not one club here thats worth its name that does not have its own SLP club series.....

Well said Mark. This anomoly does NOT only apply to the USA or Canada, but in fact, in my opinion, EVERYWHERE around the world, except Europe..
While we struggle to get conformity and standardization to the classes in our own Countries, you guys have not only already redesigned the wheel, but you've already re-built it, changed it's shape, colour, made it work even better, and already made it for sale!

Honestly, right now, we're growing the 1/24 class here in SA, similarly to Mark in Canada, but we've gone a "one make rule", and at the lowest possible cost, by using lexan bodies. If this is the route we have to take to get enthusiasts IN to the 1/24 true Scale scene, then, that's the route we take, but I can say for sure, we are SO far behind the Europeans, with regards to equipment, development and experience, that November will either be a BIG surprise with lots of luck, or, Mark and me will be first and second, FROM THE BACK!!!

Supply and Distribution, and the rleated politics behind them, is also stumping all of our growth. The fact we are forced to purchase equipment from International Distributors/retailers, on an average 10:1 exchange rate puts us on the back foot continuously. Yet dsespite all of this, our simpl,istic series continues to grow. Personally, similar to the one-make bodies, I would force the Worlds series to use ONE chassis only, because that would provide everyone on all four corners of the earth, with the same machinery, and equal chance of winning..

my personal views.

Regards

Al Paterson
www.slotcars.co.za

Hi Mark and Al

The problem that you have is not a problem of materials and products, is a problem of distance. I know this, because i live in Spain, and we have France beetween us and the paradise of the model cars (Germany).
The question of the materials it’s very easy to solve, thanks to Internet you can know the last evolutions and be up to date about racing stuff. But your big problem is that you can’t share your knowledge with other people (except your country mates), and you only can imagine what is doing the other people. I know this sensation, because the first year that i go to the European Plafit Championship, all people in my team we are so afraid, that we work each day for tree months from 19:00 to 23:55 improving our car, because we don’t have any reference about what is the level of our competitors and we are really afraid to be the last ones.
Regarding the contact with the manofacturers, it’s something normal and good, because this help to the makers to evolve the product, and you can have this contact from Canada or South Africa, i’m in Europe, but at near 1500km from the nearest manofacturer…….. Remember that i race last year with a Schöler chassis, but i don’t know Mr. Schöler in person until February of this year, all the contact was by e-mail.
Also, today, when you order something, you can get in one or two weeks, UPS, DHL or Fedex are really fast.

Regarding the diferent ways to promote our hobby, i can explain my experience in Spain. In Spain we have a really big problem for the Model Cars, the tracks…near the 99% of the tracks are ninco, neither wooden or Carrera.
But this is not the only problem, also we have a lazy people that don’t like to spend so many time building the cars, and don’t like to paint. Also, a big problem for the 1/24 scale are the tools( really important thing) like power supply, tyre truer, dremmel, etc, etc, who represents a big investment when you beguin.
To avoid this problems i invented a new class (GrupoZ) with Kyosho bodies. This class are build using a normal model car chassis, a Kyosho MiniZ RC body, and a normal motor like Falcon. The main advantage of this class is that can fit in Ninco Tracks, the bodies are really resistent and come painted and are very easy to asembly.
In the begining i believe that the price of the complete car will be a important question, and i start to import Tigre schöler chassis who are very cheap, but i discovered that the people like a chassis easy to setup and competitive and the price is not a important question. Also, i spend a lot of time in a workshops where i teach to the people how to asembly the car and how to fine tune.
Now, after 2 seassons we have near 30 entrants each race……
After the success of the GrupoZ, we start the Spanish Model Car championship, and we use a very simple rules and we allow the realistic lexan bodies like the ones from TSFR or True Scale. And in this championship i see again the same, the people wants an easy to set up car and competitive, the price is a secondary question.

Mark, regarding the chasis X-SW07 GT, it’s the same of the original X-SW07 but designed for front wheels of 26,5mm/27,00mm and rear wheels of 27,5mm.
In this link you can see a picture:
http://www.slotracing-werk.de/scaleracing/rub1~Fahrwerke%20und%20Zubeh%F6r~rub2~Motor%20Modern%2CChassis~artnr~10728~pn~6~func~det~w kid~62333429499450115.html

I hope this can be useful for you

Best regards


Francesc

Fransesc, I just see the "normal" X-SW 7.1 there, for 26mm rear wheels. X-SW GT for 27,5mm rear wheels would be just ideal.

/Pekka

Gents,

I've read your remarks with a lot of interest and I'm glad to see 1/24 modelcarracing taking leap forward outside Europe.
All the addressed subjects are obviously not new. In Germany there are several 1/24 modelcar championsships based on an open class in which homegrown chassis' and extensive modifications are allowed. In fact the RFH team participates in these races as well...

It has nothing to do whether this is wrong or right. It has to do with choices. If you want to drive open class, that's fine but it's not the strategy of the events we organise.
We are continuously searching for the balance between: Innovation, technical developments, availibility of parts, accessibility of potential participants, average skill level of participants etc...

Experienced modelcar may feel patronised by the rules and come up with all sorts of arguments why certain parts, exchange of parts or modifications are not allowed and I understand that perfectly well. In fact: personally I'm no different.
Problem with it is that people tend to look only at themselves instead of the bigger picture taking the arguments into account which I described above.

Willem

Hi Pekka

Yes, the link is for the normal X-SW07, the GT version is identical, only changes the sizes for the wheels and the motor holder (fox motor).

The link is for the store of Matthias Parke, and in germany the most typical is the version for 26mm rear and 24mm front and 25mm front for Bison motor. But if you tell to mathias that you want the new version for 27,5mm rear, he can supply without problems.

its me again and I should actually be working ;-)
but. reading the comments from overseas i felt I just had to add another 50cent.
The one Chassis, one body and so on thoery works only up to the point where the limits have been reached and the racers start wanting better, faster and so on.
We here in Germany and most of the readers on this forum are on a different level and are no longer beginners on SCX/scalextrics tracks we are all so far here that Plastic tracks are even almost a thing of the far past.
have reached and passed that stage and there is absoloutly no turing back For myself and many others , the one thing that keeps the hobby interesting is the innovation and the ability to be different and progress. Without that factor the whole scene would be pretty boring. I love tweaking and developing a new Chassis just as much as I love builbing new bodies and the two belong together. Some people go even further and get kicks from building their own controllers !
If there is a restriction on Chassis, then there should be one on bodies too and on the controllers! All these restrictions would make the hobby pretty boring , and I for one would then be forced to move on.....
As Francesc mentioned, the Parts and materials problem is thanks to the WWW no longer a problem. The distance is also not a problem thanks to highly efficient postal services. The stuff I order in Japan often arrives faster and cheaper than stuff I order here . Almost the whole world can communicate in English and 99.9% of the webshops we use speak english too. Paypal has made making international payments easier than local payments so the are really no more obstacles any more. The most important thing is INFORMATION..... and that you have to get yourselves through communication. Thanks to this hobby I have met so many different and interesting and open people. The people are just as much fun as the cars themselves.
The drive for improvement makes them even more fun....
For the "lazy (or too busy) people" a Gruppo Z class is just perfect. We have the same here (Mini Z) and it is also becomming very popular. It is not my cup of tea but great for those who cannnot build their own bodies or whatever reasons, but are interested in being a part of it all.
Mark mentioned the page from Lemans....
Intrest
passion
means
a valid Idea but how to apply? and is our hobby big or strong enough to accept this of classification? We already have different series but different classes within a series........

Regards,
Fola

Hi Willem

I agree that you organize events for other levels, but the only i say all time, is that the rules are not coherent. If you want to limit, you must apply the same criterium to all aspects and for all makers.
Look to the constitution of near all countries, ever exist an article who says "all citizens are equal front the laws"
If you say that in a Plafit you can mount a Momo motor holder, but in a momo you can't mount a Plafit body holder you are not coherent in the rule, and you show a clear favoritism for the Plafit chassis (this is an example, the same may be appliend if the situation it's inverted)

Also it's the same for the bodies, take a look to Mark and Al, if they are afraid about the chassis, what will think about the carbon bodies?

Allowing the home made bodies is the same that you make a rules for a real sports car who say the motor and the chassis must be the original ones of the street car, but you can put a new body in Kevlar developed in a wind tunnel......

Coherence Willem, coherence is the only one i want, if you say plastic original tamiya body and box stock chassis for everybody, i will say ok, but if you say custom carbon bodies and box stock chassis except for the chassis i use , i will say NO, i don't agree, because you don't give the same chances to everybody.

Sorry for my insistence in the same question, but it's really important question

Francesc, please check your U2U i need your assistance....

Thanks,
Fola
P.S...
you could call me, you have my mobile number on the card I gave you in Asldorf

I'm getting more and more confused. I really understand what Francesc wants to say but:

The first posting of this thread contains a list of the parts which are seen to be chassis parts and have to be from the same manufacturer. This gives a clear view on article 2.1. Motorholders are not in that list and can be interchanged. MoMo, or even other motorholders like the "Werk's"-motorholder can also be used in every other commercial available chassis, just to mention 3 of many differents brands Plafit, Slotvision, Schöler etc.

So for me the problem is just the definition of what is a chassis part and what isn't. This decision was taken by the organisator and is completely OK IMHO.

Just for information: as I race in Trier (Germany) (just to remember you -> home of the SLP Chassis ) I hear a lot about rules in the very popular German wide SLP and SLP Challenge. Even if you allow homebrew chassis, modifications on bodies etc. etc. I see, that every season the same discussions start just from the beginning. Here at work I always say "SSDD" -> "same shit, different day" .

Good for now, I've to get back to work

Cyah all,

Mike

Francesc,

I agree, but, this is a play on words.. So test the system buddy..

I disagree that the Bodymount system is part of the chassis, as it's completely removable, whereas, the motor holder is a Major part of the chasdsis as it holds the motor in place, and therefor, is NOT removable.

The "Chassis" is the chassis. The Body is the body. The fact the bodymounts are fastened to the body in a permanent way means that it's part of the body, and certainly not part of the chassis..

If you guys say a Plafit motor mount can be used on a Momo CHassis, then dang sure there's absolutely NO reason why you can't use Plafit Bodymounts on a Momo Chassis.

I'm already disillusioned by all this lot.

Regards

Big Al

Me again,

just a last story about what is a chassis part and what isn't. In SLP your allowed to use a kind of carbon front lip that can be attached to the front of the body in order to protect it whlie crashing. It just replaces the front part of the chassis that could be cut out from the plastic chassis an glued under the body.

My teammate Bob developed a T which has this carbon lip attached to it (milled from one carbon plate). As this lip is attached to the T it's now considered in being a chassis part and no longer as a body part. Seen from above, all chassis parts have to be invisible or covered by the body. This carbon lip sticks out as far as the orginal plastic chassis from the box model or the lip, attached to the body.

Cheers,
Mike

Hi Willem,

Please could you help me to get some points perfectly cleared in my mind :

1. Carbon

1.1. A few weeks ago some shops (more information on request) began to propose complete commercial kits including carbon parts, allowed or not ?
1.2. Carbon front lips & rear air diffuser exclusively attached to the body, allowed or not ?
1.3. Following the rules, guide plate cannot be considered as free materials but may be modified, so carbon, allowed or not ?

2. "Brass ballast"

2.1. Brass ballast weights firmly attached to the body : allowed or not ?
2.2. Brass ballast weights firmly attached to the bodymounts : allowed or not ?

3. Is SC-2421P an accurate reference # for the Scaleauto handout wheels which will be delivered in Alsdorf ?

Willem, many thanks in advance for your answer.
Have a nice week-end,

Philippe.