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     The (unofficial) IMCA forum: Clarification wanted: chassis choice
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JustMe





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posted on 23-6-2008 at 14:55 Reply With Quote
Clarification wanted: chassis choice



Like I said in another post, I recently bought a Seif chassis. It was intended to be raced at a race end of the year, but now I wanna race it at the Worlds. It is available at Ralph Seif, and therefor I assume it is allowed. Right?:D



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Checa





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posted on 23-6-2008 at 16:39 Reply With Quote


Very important that Nick say.
The manufactured chasis allowed can be buy in stores, and minimum number manufactured chasis around 100, I think.
Thats my opinion.
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Whitemouse





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posted on 23-6-2008 at 18:02 Reply With Quote


If for some reason there has to be a minimum quantity for a commercial chassis to be allowed, why not just turn it all into DPM/EPC?????

OK, I am sorry for that punch in the ribs, but to sugest a minimum quantity someone needs to be able to prove that there has acctually been manufactured and assembled 100 chassis!

Now, as the history books shows in 1:1 racing this is close to imposible. Porsche had 25 of their 917s parked for a picture back in 1969 and the CSI approved it, even though it is evident from the picture that only a handful of the cars was actually finished. Ferrari has done the same stunts numerous times.

So, if I can just get my Photoshop working I will very easily "manufacture" 100 chassis for a picture to prove they are legal.

And next question! How many shops must have the chassis, online or store, to make it legal within the rules!?!

Sorry guys but a rule like that is going to be pure crap and imposible to police!

A commercial chassis is a chassis manufactured in a series, i.e. more than one chassis. It is availabel direct form the manufacturer or in webshops. Thats it and thats that - In my humble opinion!




Cheers,
Paal Hanson
Vikings Scaleracing Club, Frederikssund, Denmark
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fola





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posted on 23-6-2008 at 18:40 Reply With Quote


Agree with Pal even though I produce my own Chassis and well over 50 have been built, i think that Mass Produced is a totally different thing..... "Handcrafted/custom" has little or nothing to do with production of, in and for masses.
The availability should be a factor also _ Commercially available.
but hey..... chew on this !!

madness
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/4age/4A-GE060.jpg
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marco





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posted on 23-6-2008 at 19:39 Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by fola
Agree with Pal even though I produce my own Chassis and well over 50 have been built, i think that Mass Produced is a totally different thing..... "Handcrafted/custom" has little or nothing to do with production of, in and for masses.
The availability should be a factor also _ Commercially available.
but hey..... chew on this !!

madness
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/mikevillena/4age/4A-GE060.jpg


What we see here is clear evidence and clinical proof of an illness that may not have a known cure. Are those cylinders lined with ceramic? Very, very sick puppy.

Mass produced and commercially available . . . you are both spot on. The new MOMO XSW07 chassis that surfaced at last year's Worlds is a good case in point. Even with some VERY good connections I came up dry . . . not that it would have mattered in my hands . . . but it clearly was not available to all racers. And the availability issue needs to be REAL . . . including supply issues . . . which have surrounded the independent fronts, cambered or otherwise, for the SLP chassis . . . this year.

The availability issue also needs to be international in reach . . . or it will make it doubly difficult to develop and increase worldwide representation at IMCA and the World Championships. I don't think we have any major issues to date . . . but you can see the potential starting to surface.

Personally, I am both interested and a little apprehensive about the 'experimental' chassis factor that has been added to this year's Championship. It seems a little askew of the F430 Challenge Series which is spec at 1:1 . . . and perhaps better suited to an LMP class of cars. But I am not an expert in these matters. Will it play a role in seeding the grid for the actual World Championships? Does it put an unfair advantage in the hands of people with access to production and deeper pockets? At the end of the day, I do think it is worth the trial this year to see what and who surfaces.

Mark Campbell
Scale Racing America
.
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tamar





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posted on 24-6-2008 at 00:33 Reply With Quote
my 2 cents



Gents
May I suggest that as model racers, you do what you do best and look at 1/1 racing for inspiration ;)

In general a commercially available item is coupled to a minimum number of produced parts, but this for such a nice market as modelcar racing is a hard to define criteria.

In using the term commercially available you should also ask the question commercially available to whom.

As a set of rules is there to make an fair competition possible so it would be logical to say that a chassis should be "commercially" available to all those who participate.

You could also use a criteria as used in F1 during the era when the rules still allowed multiple trye manufacturers.
Those who wanted to have their products used in F1 (Bridgestone, Michelin, Goodyear etc etc.) Had the obligation to supply at least half of the grid.

Such a requirement could be asked of any party that would want to introduce any part/chassis to the competition.




With kind regards
Tamar
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marco





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posted on 24-6-2008 at 02:58 Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by tamar . . . You could also use a criteria as used in F1 during the era when the rules still allowed multiple trye manufacturers. Those who wanted to have their products used in F1 (Bridgestone, Michelin, Goodyear etc etc.) Had the obligation to supply at least half of the grid. Such a requirement could be asked of any party that would want to introduce any part/chassis to the competition.


Yes, this would be a much better measure of availability. And perhaps this condition of homologation should be extended to ALL confirmed racers for national and world championships. As with F1 . . . the only remaining loophole as I see it is the all to familiar matter of . . . $$$$$$$ . . . or should I say €€€€€€€€. Manufacturer X could offer their latest and the greatest at astronomical prices . . . with no real intention of general availability . . . but with every intent to supply at no cost to a 'works' team. Even in my short tenure I have seen this 'variation' of the supply chain at work. Now where do we go? .:car:

Mark
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Keld Hoefler





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posted on 24-6-2008 at 07:47 Reply With Quote


If the chassis has to be commecial to ex. the ½ grid, you also has to set a date for it.
ex. 30 days before the race all chassis and parts allowed are being published to the mass.

not fun to get the chassis the day before the race, no time to set up and test.

about the price for it, set a limit as maks. 5x the normal price for commercial chassis, it is much work to be done making small series part, and therefore much more expensive.




Keld
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Massiven





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posted on 24-6-2008 at 13:05 Reply With Quote


hi folks,

I can confirm that Ralph's chassis is already sold more than 50 times across Europe. The chassis can even be bought through an official web-slotcar-shop. But I can also cofirm, that the "Seifen-Kiste" ain't a chassis for touring cars like the F430. I'ts developed for Group C cars run in the SLP challenges across Germany, Switerland, Austria and newly in Netherlands (SLP Euregio).

cya,
de Massiven
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fola





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posted on 24-6-2008 at 13:39 Reply With Quote


Quote:
Originally posted by marco
Personally, I am both interested and a little apprehensive about the 'experimental' chassis factor that has been added to this year's Championship. It seems a little askew of the F430 Challenge Series which is spec at 1:1 . . . and perhaps better suited to an LMP class of cars. But I am not an expert in these matters. Will it play a role in seeding the grid for the actual World Championships? Does it put an unfair advantage in the hands of people with access to production and deeper pockets? At the end of the day, I do think it is worth the trial this year to see what and who surfaces
.


I agree totally, or at least almost with mark and of course with Massiven,
The experimental chassis is definitely more suited to Prototypes and less to the Challenge series cars which are in 1:1 much closer to standard production cars (Mass produced and commercially available).
The "experimental" Chassis we all know, have and some of us produce, have been mainly developed for Group C and Prototype cars for SLP type racing, low, long and wide. I have experimented with smaller cars in the DSC and in the DTSW series and the Chassis run well but not really better than the Scholer, S24,SLP or a well prepared MoMo.
I seriously doubt that there will be any experimental F430's at the worlds. And for future Races it might be an option. I will deifnately be developing further in the direction and will be more than willing to share with any one for a small contribution. The goal here is to develop the hobby and to move on to new levels... we are the worlds champions right??;);)

madness




Von 908#17
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JustMe





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posted on 24-6-2008 at 16:19 Reply With Quote
I think we all more or less agree



but I also think it should be adressed by the organisation. I agree on making (selfmade) chassis for LMP cars, cause in my view these should be the quickest machines on a slotracing track.
I think if one doesn't want chassis like Seif's in the championship, one should have a very good reason for that, cause like Mike pointed out, these chassis are widely available. Or lets just say, just as available as a Plafit, which also sometimes have their problems getting people far away their stuff.
It is true that the chassis I now have suits GroupC and LMP's better, but actually that doesn't really matter. What if some genius wins with a 'non-suitable' rally chassis or something? point remains the same....

Cheers




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jeem





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driver.gif posted on 16-7-2008 at 15:54 Reply With Quote
What type of chassis?



Use of "mass production" chassis in actual conditions is really bad decision.
There are only two possible and correct solutions: free chassis or only homologated chassis w/o modifications.
When we are talking about imca racing cars - it means MODEL cars - realistic look. We have to spend more time on body finishing instead of chassis tunning like in ISRA, etc... From this point of view I prefere for IMCA only 1 simple homologated chassis w/o any modification and prefere body look, etc.
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Massiven





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posted on 17-7-2008 at 08:33 Reply With Quote


et voilà

IMCA turns into a 2nd constructor championship. I don't think that this is, what the IMCA responsibles want. IMHO chassis should be free for each racing series, no matter of FIA GT, LMP oder challenge series like the Ferrari 430 Challenge. Only if you have the perfect body (not only the look but also things like, weight, ballance etc.) and the perfect chassis, you'll have a chance to fight for the titel.

Cheers,
de Massiven aka. Mike
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jeem





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posted on 17-7-2008 at 10:31 Reply With Quote


with free chassis this have a sense.
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