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willem
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posted on 28-8-2007 at 07:32
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Article 2: Rule explanation
2.1 Make & Type - Choice of chassis parts manufacturer is free. Chassis parts must be from the same manufacturer. Chassis' must be
angle/sidewinder type.
In july in Alsdorf we were confronted with some minor interpretation differences regarding the above rule. I will try to explain it including what the
reasoning behind it.
Basically what the rule says is. "If you use a chassis part (any chassis part) manufactured by manufacturer X, then all the other chassis parts
must by from manufacturer X"
Then obviously the question arises....What is a chassis part and what's not?
Well....here's a comprehensive list of what we "see" as chassis part and therefor needs to be from the same manufacturer as the other chassis
parts.
Chassis plates (ie: All parts with the same function like T-bars, rearbase plates etc..)
Axle holders (ie: All parts with the same function)
H-plate (ie: All parts with the same function)
Body mounts
Reasoning behind it is to prevent custom made chassis and allow at the same time as much freedom in chassis type, choice and setup.
Note: To prevent disappointments at the race please contact us if you're unsure about the interpretation of the rule whilst making choices.
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Massiven
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posted on 28-8-2007 at 13:40
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Hi Willem,
this means that the motor holder is free? I can use MoMo Motor holder while the rest is Plafit?
Just asking myself if Jean-Pierre has the same interpretation of the IMCA rules. That would make life much easier. I think Fola already posted already
a thread why using the MoMo Motorholder instead of a plafit one. There's still no release date for the new FOX-holder.
Cheers,
Mike
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willem
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posted on 28-8-2007 at 17:49
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Correct
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marco
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posted on 28-8-2007 at 18:39
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Massiven
Just asking myself if Jean-Pierre has the same interpretation of the IMCA rules. That would make life much easier. Cheers, Mike |
I have a question regarding the following,
4.3 Modifications - Body modifications to comply with Art 4.1 are allowed. Body mounts/holders modifications are allowed. Adding ballast and/or
removing weight inside the body to comply with Art 1.3 is allowed.
• Does this mean that body mounts can be CUSTOM and do NOT have to be from the same manufactuer's chassis kit?
• And does it also mean that it is permitted to 'thinout' or 'dremel' the body?
Mike's general comment regarding parity between the LMC rules and IMCA is of interest to me as we work to promote a 'standard' on this side of the
Atlantic. Thanks. All the best for now.
Mark Campbell
Scale Racing America
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fola
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posted on 28-8-2007 at 20:37
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| Quote: | Originally posted by willem
2.1 Make & Type - Choice of chassis parts manufacturer is free. Chassis parts must be from the same manufacturer. Chassis' must be
angle/sidewinder type.
Reasoning behind it is to prevent custom made chassis and allow at the same time as much freedom in chassis type, choice and
setup. |
But then you need to change the formulation of the following -
2.1 Make & Type - Choice of chassis parts manufacturer is free. Chassis parts must be from the same manufacturer
as a manufacturer could be anybody with the ability to manufacture I quote :
Manufacturing (from Latin manu factura, "making by hand") is the use of tools and labor to make things for use or sale......
I still do not really see the sense in not allowing Custom mades, but allowing to "customize"
IMHO this rule is a contradiction to the rule allowing "Home brewed "bodies and "Dremelling"...
I am a believer of total freedom of expression and creativity.....
Regards
Fola
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Whitemouse
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posted on 28-8-2007 at 21:33
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I agree 100% with Fola on the freedom of expression, that said I guess its a question of either regulating the rules a lot for parity, or leaving it
very open for no holds barred inovation.
IMCA has to have firmly regulated rules I think, to keep sort of parity, but the LMS should be "state of the art" if posible. We are all doing our
"Voodoo" stuff when it comes to bodies anyway..............
Just my 5 cent.........
Cheers,
Paal Hanson
Vikings Scaleracing Club, Frederikssund, Denmark
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willem
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posted on 28-8-2007 at 23:09
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Going to bed right now...reply tomorrow!
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willem
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posted on 29-8-2007 at 06:51
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Reasoning behind it!
Fola, Whitemouse, Mike
Whilst taking your remarks into a goodnight sleep, it felt to me as a big DEJA VU. 10 years ago we had exactly the same discussion resulting in a set
of rules with definitions lists, functionlists, material lists and part lists in order to make "sure" that "whizzkids" like yourself couldn't
find a hole in the rules
This proved to be a useless excersise. There will always be holes in the rules and the usual suspects will always look for them. Here comes the
phrase: "WHAT'S THE SPIRIT OF THE RULES?"
Well I think you all understand what they are and if you don't.....there is always the possibility of asking.
Having said this.....here the answers on the questions in the several posts:
Momo Motor holder on a plafit chassis > Allowed
What is a manufacturer? > Well...we all are but obviously that not what we mean in the rule. Do I need to explain any further or do you think
you've got it
Thinout / dremel the body > Allowed
Custom made / customize > Technically there is no difference! Again a matter of definitions of which we had around 10 of them covering ONLY the
bodymounts back in the '90. What we mean is that you are allowed to shape / modify the bodyholders using the bodyholders of the same manufacturer as
the other chassis parts. Again, if you have difficulties in getting this which I perfectly understand, feel free to ask.
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Francesc
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posted on 29-8-2007 at 06:59
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I agree with Fola, i think that the evolution of the cars must be in racing, not in stores. Really in our hobby, we enjoy building the car, testing
new technical solutions and so on.
And today, the excuse that some materials are not available in some countries is not valid, Internet make possible to get what you want where you
want.
And another question. What is the sense in allow only materials fron the same manofacturer of the chassis? Also, i see that in Momo Chassis i can't
use the Plafit multipart body holders, but in the Plafit chassis you can use the Momo Motor holder, i don't want to think in a wrong way, but looks
like this rules are to give some extra advantage to the Plafit chassis........
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Massiven
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posted on 29-8-2007 at 08:15
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Hi Francesc,
hte only reason why I asked to use the MoMo Motorholder in Plafit Chassis is following:
I race in the race center, where the SLP groundplate from Plafit has been developed. Therefore I ONLY race Plafit Chassis or selfmade chassis. Plafit
has no motorholder for FOX-like motors (FOX-like because of the can size) that allows to lower the motor in order the the motor is clear with the
groundplate (seen from the bottom). I also have no clue how to finetune a MoMo chassis to get it fast  . In my eyes SLP groundplates don't have that much advantage because they have been developed for the Bison motor,
which is much heavier than the Proslot Euro MK. It's just a question of the center of gravity (hopefully everbody understands what I'm trying to
say).
Now I've got to write Jean-Piere an email in order to ask him, if I can use the MoMo holder in my chassis.
Cheers,
Mike
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Francesc
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posted on 29-8-2007 at 14:02
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Hi Mike
The problem is not the motor holder, the problem is a lack of coherence in the rules.
Why we can't mix parts from different chassis manofacturers? We need to protect the bussiness of the manofacturers? or we want to enjoy getting the
most from our cars?.
As well you need a Fox motor holder, i can need a multipart body holder, why you can use a part of a diferent manofacturer and i can't?
Do you understand what i mean?
Why we can't improve chassis and we can use very sofisticated bodies? Coherence, this is the main question.
Some rules only give conflicts.....
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Massiven
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posted on 29-8-2007 at 14:13
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Hi Francesc,
I understand what you're saying.
Mike
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Gert
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posted on 29-8-2007 at 15:51
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Hi Guy's
I would like to remind you all to the fact that all racers make a choice of
chassis they want to use in a race.
My opinion is followd: a. you made that choice yourself.
b. Stick to the parts of the choice you made.
Now the why:
I have been playing with slotcars for a long time now, and seen it go up and down.
The ups where there when we all raced the same materials.
The downs came up when we started to develop new parts and used them
What I'm trying to tell you all is that iff you allowe mixed use of different brands to get the ultimate chassis.
Slotracing will get it's down moment again.
Stick to the rules and race the race in good sportsmanschip.
Greetz Gert
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Francesc
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posted on 29-8-2007 at 18:47
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Hello Gert
Regarding this: "What I'm trying to tell you all is that iff you allowe mixed use of different brands to get the ultimate chassis.
Slotracing will get it's down moment again."
My experience in Spain it's absolutely oposite to your afirmation. We race for some years with the formula of only one make chassis, and day after
day the people leave the hobby. When i start with the championships of GrupoZ (model cars with Kyosho RC bodies) and model cars with free rules, day
after day we have more people. Also you can see the experience in the DSC championship, where the chassis is absolutelly free, you can also race with
a home made chassis.
Some people try to link the obscure days of the slot racing with the freedom of chassis and materials, and yes, exists a relationship, but is not only
this. I'm one of the racers who in the begining of the 80's leave the slot racing, i was an eurosport racer, i made my own chassis and rewind my own
motors, but i leave the slot racing for something so simple like girls, "fiesta" and work.
Another scenary to show you that your afirmation is wrong is the 1/32 slot racing. In this moments in Spain , the 1/32 slot racing is living a golden
age, and never before you had so many racing stuf and new products like now. You can choose a mix beetween Slot.it, NSR, Ninco, SCX, Scalextric, Fly,
Sloter, Avant Slot, Spirit, Hobby Slot, PN Slot and many many brands, with a lot of news each month, and never before we have so many entrants in the
races.
But this is not what i disagree regarding the rules, i disagree the fact that these rules are not coherent, they put limits in the development of the
chassis, but not in the bodies. Also permits some "foreign" parts for some chassis but not for others.
And don't be confused with my attitude in this question, this is not a problem for me, because i'm in a very comfortable position in relation with
some manofacturers, i have a R&D and if i need some parts, they do it for me and for sale. For example i needed a chassis from Momo to meet the IMCA
rules, and Momo did it (X-SW07 GT).
But i hate the non coherent rules, and some absurd limits to the creativity.
For example in the part regarding the chassis, will be easier for everybody ( racers and race direction) rules like:
"Chassis free of choice beetween the commercial ones, mix of parts of different manofacturers are allowed. Home made parts are allowed if the part in
question has a similar shape and only does the same role of the substituted part"
If you remember, this is very very similar to the rules of the IMCA worlds 2004 of Uden.......
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fola
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posted on 29-8-2007 at 18:52
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There will always be something to biatch about.
That is the nature of man.... never satisfied, never has enough...
as I wrote i feel that things should be totally open, but on the other hand,
not all animals are equal.... some are more equal than others, and even though
every thing is available to any and everybody, not everybody is able to or in the
postition to make use of all possible options and in some cases for no personal fault.
On one side we all want progress and develpment. On the other side we also want
the continuatiuon of the sport/hobby but as Gert implied the progress we strive for could be the downfall of the hobby.....and thus some rules need to
be layed down... for our own good
other wise we might just end up with two classes that are each too small to survive....
Home brew is, when done right , not more expensive than Commercially available,and with the right amount of sourcing the pit/sky is the limit. Maybe
the cracks (US?) need to follow Tamars footsteps and open the door for the other unequal animals who need assistance to see and grab the available
opportunities..... and progress
Ok thats enough philosophy for this decade!!!!
Gotta get back to building Model cars....
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fola
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posted on 29-8-2007 at 19:08
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One more thing.... Francesc has a very good point.
The most popular series at the moment here in Germany
isi the SLP, all of you know that this series totally encourages
home brewed chassis and stock bodies. The choice of Cars ( or Quoting Tamar, DECKELN), may not be our flavour, but you have to agree that the
pace of development is huge (Formular1) and that the complaxity of the subject matter does not scare but attracts active and potential participants
alike.
There is not one club here thats worth its name that does not have its own SLP club series.....
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marco
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posted on 30-8-2007 at 02:52
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Francesc
And don't be confused with my attitude in this question, this is not a problem for me, because i'm in a very comfortable position in relation with
some manofacturers, i have a R&D and if i need some parts, they do it for me and for sale. For example i needed a chassis from Momo to meet the IMCA
rules, and Momo did it (X-SW07 GT). But i hate the non coherent rules . . . |
All of this is a very interesting discussion to watch from the other side of the world where we work to develop model car racing and we have very
little to purchase in either the Canada or the USA let alone the ability to ask a maker for parts or something new to meet the rules. Without my
Spanish speaking secretary from Argentina, my orders from CricCrac would most likely never arrive! As an industrial designer by profession I
understand and I live by the necessity of creativity and innovation, and as a promoter of model car racing in America, I have come to understand the
importance of inclusivity.
My first visit to an IMCA race in 2005 was a wonderful experience and the best of hospitality from the European racers. However, to see chassis and
parts that I had no knowledge or availability . . . and ultimately to race rather poorly . . . was a quiet embarrassment in comparison to the
friendship that I enjoyed. So in two months I will come back to Belgium . . . a fortunate position that few racers in North America can afford. And
I wish to race better than the first time but with only a few weeks to go, I see that new chassis and parts may be approved . . . for those that have
access or knowledge or a good connection with the maker. We say in America, " . . . a moving target".
At the best of times, we strive to be an extension of motor sport. So perhaps we should take a page from Le Mans for international competition,
enabling racers with the interest and the means to enter prototypical cars . . . as well as racers with equal passion but perhaps less access to enter
a more level playing field. LMP1, LMP2, GT1, GT2 . . . all of the winners this year seemed to have rejoiced in their respective victory and
accomplishment. Just a few thoughts from this side of the Atlantic. All the best guys. By the way Francesc . . . what is a MOMO X-SW07 GT?
Mark Campbell
Scale Racing America
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Big Al
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posted on 30-8-2007 at 06:21
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Well said Mark. This anomoly does NOT only apply to the USA or Canada, but in fact, in my opinion, EVERYWHERE around the world, except Europe..
While we struggle to get conformity and standardization to the classes in our own Countries, you guys have not only already redesigned the wheel, but
you've already re-built it, changed it's shape, colour, made it work even better, and already made it for sale!
Honestly, right now, we're growing the 1/24 class here in SA, similarly to Mark in Canada, but we've gone a "one make rule", and at the lowest
possible cost, by using lexan bodies. If this is the route we have to take to get enthusiasts IN to the 1/24 true Scale scene, then, that's the route
we take, but I can say for sure, we are SO far behind the Europeans, with regards to equipment, development and experience, that November will either
be a BIG surprise with lots of luck, or, Mark and me will be first and second, FROM THE BACK!!!
Supply and Distribution, and the rleated politics behind them, is also stumping all of our growth. The fact we are forced to purchase equipment from
International Distributors/retailers, on an average 10:1 exchange rate puts us on the back foot continuously. Yet dsespite all of this, our
simpl,istic series continues to grow. Personally, similar to the one-make bodies, I would force the Worlds series to use ONE chassis only, because
that would provide everyone on all four corners of the earth, with the same machinery, and equal chance of winning..
my personal views.
Regards
Al Paterson
www.slotcars.co.za
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Francesc
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posted on 30-8-2007 at 08:27
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Hi Mark and Al
The problem that you have is not a problem of materials and products, is a problem of distance. I know this, because i live in Spain, and we have
France beetween us and the paradise of the model cars (Germany).
The question of the materials it’s very easy to solve, thanks to Internet you can know the last evolutions and be up to date about racing stuff. But
your big problem is that you can’t share your knowledge with other people (except your country mates), and you only can imagine what is doing the
other people. I know this sensation, because the first year that i go to the European Plafit Championship, all people in my team we are so afraid,
that we work each day for tree months from 19:00 to 23:55 improving our car, because we don’t have any reference about what is the level of our
competitors and we are really afraid to be the last ones.
Regarding the contact with the manofacturers, it’s something normal and good, because this help to the makers to evolve the product, and you can
have this contact from Canada or South Africa, i’m in Europe, but at near 1500km from the nearest manofacturer…….. Remember that i race last
year with a Schöler chassis, but i don’t know Mr. Schöler in person until February of this year, all the contact was by e-mail.
Also, today, when you order something, you can get in one or two weeks, UPS, DHL or Fedex are really fast.
Regarding the diferent ways to promote our hobby, i can explain my experience in Spain. In Spain we have a really big problem for the Model Cars, the
tracks…near the 99% of the tracks are ninco, neither wooden or Carrera.
But this is not the only problem, also we have a lazy people that don’t like to spend so many time building the cars, and don’t like to paint.
Also, a big problem for the 1/24 scale are the tools( really important thing) like power supply, tyre truer, dremmel, etc, etc, who represents a big
investment when you beguin.
To avoid this problems i invented a new class (GrupoZ) with Kyosho bodies. This class are build using a normal model car chassis, a Kyosho MiniZ RC
body, and a normal motor like Falcon. The main advantage of this class is that can fit in Ninco Tracks, the bodies are really resistent and come
painted and are very easy to asembly.
In the begining i believe that the price of the complete car will be a important question, and i start to import Tigre schöler chassis who are very
cheap, but i discovered that the people like a chassis easy to setup and competitive and the price is not a important question. Also, i spend a lot of
time in a workshops where i teach to the people how to asembly the car and how to fine tune.
Now, after 2 seassons we have near 30 entrants each race……
After the success of the GrupoZ, we start the Spanish Model Car championship, and we use a very simple rules and we allow the realistic lexan bodies
like the ones from TSFR or True Scale. And in this championship i see again the same, the people wants an easy to set up car and competitive, the
price is a secondary question.
Mark, regarding the chasis X-SW07 GT, it’s the same of the original X-SW07 but designed for front wheels of 26,5mm/27,00mm and rear wheels of
27,5mm.
In this link you can see a picture:
http://www.slotracing-werk.de/scaleracing/rub1~Fahrwerke%20und%20Zubeh%F6r~rub2~Motor%20Modern%2CChassis~artnr~10728~pn~6~func~det~w
kid~62333429499450115.html
I hope this can be useful for you
Best regards
Francesc
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PorscheFreak
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posted on 30-8-2007 at 09:04
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Fransesc, I just see the "normal" X-SW 7.1 there, for 26mm rear wheels. X-SW GT for 27,5mm rear wheels would be just ideal.
/Pekka
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willem
LMSadmin
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posted on 30-8-2007 at 09:17
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Popularity growth versus rules!
Gents,
I've read your remarks with a lot of interest and I'm glad to see 1/24 modelcarracing taking leap forward outside Europe.
All the addressed subjects are obviously not new. In Germany there are several 1/24 modelcar championsships based on an open class in which homegrown
chassis' and extensive modifications are allowed. In fact the RFH team participates in these races as well...
It has nothing to do whether this is wrong or right. It has to do with choices. If you want to drive open class, that's fine but it's not the
strategy of the events we organise.
We are continuously searching for the balance between: Innovation, technical developments, availibility of parts, accessibility of potential
participants, average skill level of participants etc...
Experienced modelcar may feel patronised by the rules and come up with all sorts of arguments why certain parts, exchange of parts or modifications
are not allowed and I understand that perfectly well. In fact: personally I'm no different.
Problem with it is that people tend to look only at themselves instead of the bigger picture taking the arguments into account which I described
above.
Willem
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Francesc
Posts: 47
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posted on 30-8-2007 at 09:31
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Hi Pekka
Yes, the link is for the normal X-SW07, the GT version is identical, only changes the sizes for the wheels and the motor holder (fox motor).
The link is for the store of Matthias Parke, and in germany the most typical is the version for 26mm rear and 24mm front and 25mm front for Bison
motor. But if you tell to mathias that you want the new version for 27,5mm rear, he can supply without problems.
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fola
Posts: 338
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posted on 30-8-2007 at 09:48
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its me again and I should actually be working ;-)
but. reading the comments from overseas i felt I just had to add another 50cent.
The one Chassis, one body and so on thoery works only up to the point where the limits have been reached and the racers start wanting better, faster
and so on.
We here in Germany and most of the readers on this forum are on a different level and are no longer beginners on SCX/scalextrics tracks we are all so
far here that Plastic tracks are even almost a thing of the far past.
have reached and passed that stage and there is absoloutly no turing back For myself and many others , the one thing that keeps the hobby interesting
is the innovation and the ability to be different and progress. Without that factor the whole scene would be pretty boring. I love tweaking and
developing a new Chassis just as much as I love builbing new bodies and the two belong together. Some people go even further and get kicks from
building their own controllers !
If there is a restriction on Chassis, then there should be one on bodies too and on the controllers! All these restrictions would make the hobby
pretty boring , and I for one would then be forced to move on.....
As Francesc mentioned, the Parts and materials problem is thanks to the WWW no longer a problem. The distance is also not a problem thanks to highly
efficient postal services. The stuff I order in Japan often arrives faster and cheaper than stuff I order here . Almost the whole world can
communicate in English and 99.9% of the webshops we use speak english too. Paypal has made making international payments easier than local payments so
the are really no more obstacles any more. The most important thing is INFORMATION..... and that you have to get yourselves through communication.
Thanks to this hobby I have met so many different and interesting and open people. The people are just as much fun as the cars themselves.
The drive for improvement makes them even more fun....
For the "lazy (or too busy) people" a Gruppo Z class is just perfect. We have the same here (Mini Z) and it is also becomming very popular. It is
not my cup of tea but great for those who cannnot build their own bodies or whatever reasons, but are interested in being a part of it all.
Mark mentioned the page from Lemans....
Intrest
passion
means
a valid Idea but how to apply? and is our hobby big or strong enough to accept this of classification? We already have different series but different
classes within a series........
Regards,
Fola
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Francesc
Posts: 47
Registered: 28-5-2002
Location: L'Ametlla del Valles
Member Is Offline
Mood: Not set
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posted on 30-8-2007 at 09:54
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Hi Willem
I agree that you organize events for other levels, but the only i say all time, is that the rules are not coherent. If you want to limit, you must
apply the same criterium to all aspects and for all makers.
Look to the constitution of near all countries, ever exist an article who says "all citizens are equal front the laws"
If you say that in a Plafit you can mount a Momo motor holder, but in a momo you can't mount a Plafit body holder you are not coherent in the rule,
and you show a clear favoritism for the Plafit chassis (this is an example, the same may be appliend if the situation it's inverted)
Also it's the same for the bodies, take a look to Mark and Al, if they are afraid about the chassis, what will think about the carbon bodies?
Allowing the home made bodies is the same that you make a rules for a real sports car who say the motor and the chassis must be the original ones of
the street car, but you can put a new body in Kevlar developed in a wind tunnel......
Coherence Willem, coherence is the only one i want, if you say plastic original tamiya body and box stock chassis for everybody, i will say ok, but if
you say custom carbon bodies and box stock chassis except for the chassis i use , i will say NO, i don't agree, because you don't give the same
chances to everybody.
Sorry for my insistence in the same question, but it's really important question
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fola
Posts: 338
Registered: 8-10-2006
Location: The PLANET Earth.
Member Is Offline
Mood: ADMIN wanna be I D A M N right I'm building again & Sleepless in the celler
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posted on 30-8-2007 at 10:14
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Francesc, please check your U2U i need your assistance....
Thanks,
Fola
P.S...
you could call me, you have my mobile number on the card I gave you in Asldorf
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